Talk:Situationist International

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Situationists: Just what are they talking about?

"Critics of the Situationists frequently assert that their ideas are not in fact complex and difficult to understand, but are at best simple ideas expressed in deliberately difficult language, and at worst actually nonsensical."

In the interests of clear and honest debate, might not this article fully address this comment? For what if the ideas of the Situationists - far from being complex or difficult - are simply "nonsensical"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.69.169.2 (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

'When the Situationist International was first formed, it had a predominantly artistic focus usw.

This appears to be a misinterpretation of the sentence 'With its beginnings in an artistic milieu, the SI finally developed a more overtly political position from which its members gave full expression to their hostility to every aspect of existing society.' from 'The most radical gesture' The word 'beginnings' here does not refer to the early SI but the pre-situationist movements.

take the preceding sentence 'But the movement also stands in a less distinct line of pleasure-seeking libertarianism, popular resistance, and autonomous struggle, and its revolutionary stance owes a great deal to this diffuse tradition of unorthodox rebellion'

The 'finally' here means that the SI was the first group to develop such a position, not that it gradually developed it throughout its existence EvilApparatus (talk) 18:20, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Chapter 2 — “The Practice of Everyday Life”

This chapter covers the SI’s artistic origins, including unitary urbanism and psychogeography.

Chapter 3 — “The Revolution of Everyday Life”

This chapter covers the SI’s transition toward political theory, Marxism, and the critique of the spectacle.

Across these chapters, Plant describes:

the SI’s initial artistic orientation

the influence of Lettrism, COBRA, and avant‑garde art

the development of unitary urbanism and psychogeography

the turn toward revolutionary politics after 1962 Altanner1991 (talk) 18:33, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

sorry, which source is this from? there are a lot linked here EvilApparatus (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

That is from the referenced source which you removed. Altanner1991 (talk) 18:39, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

from 'the most radical gesture'? I cannot find it there EvilApparatus (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

There is a free copy online, but it seems to only have the page of contents: https://archive.org/details/mostradicalgestu0000plan/page/n7/mode/2up Altanner1991 (talk) 18:47, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

I have read the text. Where is

'

Chapter 2 — “The Practice of Everyday Life”

This chapter covers the SI’s artistic origins, including unitary urbanism and psychogeography.

Chapter 3 — “The Revolution of Everyday Life”

This chapter covers the SI’s transition toward political theory, Marxism, and the critique of the spectacle.

Across these chapters, Plant describes:

the SI’s initial artistic orientation

the influence of Lettrism, COBRA, and avant‑garde art

the development of unitary urbanism and psychogeography

' EvilApparatus (talk) 18:54, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Those are the summaries of the chapters of the book. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:18, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

there is no such chapter as 'The Revolution of Everyday Life'. That is a book by vaneigem EvilApparatus (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

That chapter is titled ‘…a single choice: suicide or revolution’. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:40, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Okay. I am unsure why you brought up these non-existent chapters EvilApparatus (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Those are summaries of the book. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Are you able to search through the book? Altanner1991 (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

yes, i am using this pdf perhaps this is a different edition? i do not recognise these chapter names, even EvilApparatus (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

I do not understand how you are justifying that "situationist movement" and "Situationist International" are interpreted as two separate concepts by the author of the book. Could you clarify? Thank you Altanner1991 (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

I wrote 'pre-situationist movements.' e.g. isidore isou's lettrists, the surrealists EvilApparatus (talk) 19:28, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Chapter 3 of Plant Sadie's book closes with "Among the postcards produced for the 1988 exhibition of the Situationist International at the ICA was one declaring, ‘Humanity won’t be happy until the last bureaucrat is hanged with the guts of the last capitalist.’"

This is very different from the presentation earlier in the book, where implied "Situationist International" designates artistic endeavor and before political tendencies. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

The SI had dissolved by 1988.

Even if the book said such a thing it would be absurd. refer, again, to Theses on Cultural Revolution from 1958(Very early!) EvilApparatus (talk) 19:40, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

It does say those things: you can find the quote on page 110 of the pdf. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

It seems fairly obvious that the bulk of the book is about the transition from art to politics. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

have you actually read it? do that, if you will, then tell me what the bulk is about.

by the way, do you believe that the art and politics of the SI can be separated? Even the worst academic misreadings couldn't support that notion. EvilApparatus (talk) 19:24, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

from Theses on Cultural Revolution

'The traditional goal of aesthetics is to produce, by means of art, impressions of certain past elements of life in circumstances where those elements are lacking or absent, in such a way that those elements escape the disorder of appearances subject to the ravages of time. The degree of aesthetic success is thus measured by a beauty that is inseparable from duration, and that even goes so far as pretensions of eternity. The goal of the situationists is immediate participation in a passionate abundance of life by means of deliberately arranged variations of ephemeral moments. The success of these moments can reside in nothing other than their fleeting effect. The situationists consider cultural activity in its totality as an experimental method for constructing everyday life, a method that can and should be continually developed with the extension of leisure and the withering away of the division of labor (beginning with the division of artistic labor).' EvilApparatus (talk) 19:27, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

That's fine but it doesn't negate Sadie's book. Altanner1991 (talk) 19:45, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You haven't shown how Sadie's book negates it. In fact you have not even read Sadie's book, so I do not really understand why you continue this discussion. EvilApparatus (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

It says the sentence which is directly quoted. Not the second part of your comment. Are you being deliberately obtuse? EvilApparatus (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

The book makes it very clear. I do not know how you can make the claim that the SI was "political from the start". Altanner1991 (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

??????? The Situationist International? That is what we are talking about. EvilApparatus (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

It is pretty ridiculous to make the claim that the Situationist International was created, at its inception, as the political implementation of situationism. This happened gradually after the SI formed. (see Sadie's book) Altanner1991 (talk) 19:55, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

1. I did not say it was the 'political implementation of situationism'. There is no situationism.
2. Where in Sadie's book does it show that the SI was not 'political from the start'

EvilApparatus (talk) 19:58, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You haven't even read Sadie's book!! Perhaps an hour ago you could not even access it! Perhaps take time to research the subject before editing its page. EvilApparatus (talk) 19:59, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

WP:AGF Altanner1991 (talk) 20:13, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

I assumed Good Faith. It is not possible for you to have read the book in the short time since you gained access to a copy. What else should I think EvilApparatus (talk) 20:17, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

She contrasts the early artistic SI with the later political SI. Plant’s structure is very deliberate:

• Early SI (artistic): rooted in avant‑garde art, concerned with creativity, imagination, aesthetic revolt, influenced by Dada, surrealism, Lettrism, focused on transforming everyday life through artistic means
• Later SI (political): Marxist analysis, critique of capitalism and the spectacle, emphasis on class, alienation, workers’ councils, hostility to representation, hierarchy, bureaucracy

(She signals this shift immediately: The SI “finally developed a more overtly political position…”. And then she spends the rest of pp. 1–5 explaining the political theory (spectacle, alienation, class, councils, etc.).)

The contrast itself is the evidence.

She structures two of the five chapters of the book (chapters 2 & 3) to move from art → politics.

The first pages describe artistic roots; the rest describe political theory.

This is exactly how Plant demonstrates the evolution within the SI itself. Altanner1991 (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You have not shown how the book makes this clear, and the early SI text I provided contradicts your (unsupported) claims EvilApparatus (talk) 19:56, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Please see my above comment(s). Altanner1991 (talk) 20:15, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You did not read the book, and used an LLM to generate a response that is refuted by the very first message i put on here. Confusing behaviour EvilApparatus (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

Why are you saying that I used an LLM? Altanner1991 (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

I have read the book on my own free will, fyi. Altanner1991 (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You did not even know the names of the chapters when this discussion began. You have not read the book EvilApparatus (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

You should be relying on the content of which I provided rather than making ad hominem attacks against the contributor (me). Please refrain from making WP:personal attacks! Altanner1991 (talk) 20:43, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

This is neither an attack or personal EvilApparatus (talk) 20:54, 29 April 2026 (UTC)